I'm baaaaaaaaaack!

[TXBlackKnight]

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Crusing around the Mahindra site, I found this link with some of their company pictures. Interesting options they have on the TR40, don't know if this has been posted yet though.

Mahindra Clean Diesel Pickup Trucks and SUVs

[moulin6801]

Hey TxBlack...I am glad you point this out, I have not seen those yet. Really cool trunk bed cover, never seen anything like that.
But since I notice that they are manual shift, I assume that those are not the American version.
I don't know what is the big deal for them to show what the US truck will look like. I just don't get it.
I can see that they are waiting for APA, mechanics getting trained, start production, etc. and yet, I am sertain that the have a prototype, why not show its costumers what the truck will look like??!!
Any guesses??

[TXBlackKnight]

It appears as if the site has been slightly reworked of recently. 2009 dates are no longer listed as the "coming soon" to date, despite no year yet. The pictures do state that they are not pictures of the US version, just makes we wonder if they are doing a significant rework to the looks for the US.

[graydonblair]

Originally Posted by blue7.3

Jay, was there any discussion regarding whether the TRs will run Bio in any ratio? B5, 20, etc? I may have seen a report on it at some point, but it's all getting blurry.

-pete

I called Mahindra a few months back & talked to them. When asked if they would be able to run on Biodiesel the answer was "no". So, my guess is that they won't be warrantying the use of Biodiesel in them at all...initially anyway.

Judging by what I've heard of the engines they'll be using in the trucks, my guess is that they're using the "blue-tec" technology for diesel particulate removal (in-cylinder post-injection cleaning); which is found in VW diesels and Mercedes diesels.

Basically, the fuel injector squirts raw, unburned fuel into the cylinder on the exhaust stroke. This vaporizes the diesel fuel which travels down to the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) and burns off the particulate matter.

The problem with Biodiesel is that because it's flash point is so much higher than diesel, not all of it vaporizes and some of it sticks to the side walls on the cylinder and slides down into the crankcase causing oil dilution.

Diesel does this to some degree, but it's not all that bad. But Biodiesel, because the flash point is so high, REALLY can cause oil dilution.

Over time, as the oil gets diluted with Biodiesel, it can raise the level of the crankcase oil, dilute it to the point that it doesn't lubricate, and in the case of the turbo's, the now-thinned engine oil can prevent the turbo from properly cooling and fry the turbo's. Mercedes with the new system on them are having a devil of a time running high blends of Biodiesel in them.

The way around it if you want to run Bio in diesels with in-cylinder DPF cleaning is to simply change the engine oil a lot sooner than recommended and watch the engine oil levels. While Biodiesel does burn significantly cleaner than diesel, it still will produce some particulate matter and over time can also lead to a full Diesel Particulate Filter; which requires the in-cylinder fuel injection event to clean the DPF's.

Ford & Chevy have worked around this issue by putting a fuel injector outside of the cylinder right in the exhaust pipe. This removes the issue of oil contamination by Biodiesel because the fuel is injected outside of the cylinder. The 2011 Powerstroke and the 2011 Duramax will be approved for up to B20 (read: It'll handle B100 just fine) because of this change.

Also, from an EPA Emissions Standpoint, Biodiesel is a little thicker than Diesel and the mist it produces coming out of a fuel injector is different in volume and spray pattern. When this gets modified, the burn event in the cylinder changes. This can cause slightly elevated levels of NOx. Granted, the Urea fluid will combat this, but if I had to guess, Mahindra is already having a devil of a time just meeting the standard Tier II Bin 5 Requirements running on diesel and doesn't really want to mess with the Biodiesel variable; but that's just a guess.

If they do warrant the use of Biodiesel, I'd bet they won't go much about 5% (and at that level, what's the point?). However, if you're up for installing a DPF Delete Kit (I'm guessing it'll be a LONG time before they have one for a Mahindra), then you can remove the DPF cleaning issue altogether and can burn Bio without any problem, but...and this is a big "but", if you have a fuel related problem with the engine, and they can prove you used Biodiesel, they can void the warranty.

More details about this complex issue is posted here:
Why 2007 & Newer ULSD Emission Vehicles Don't Like Biodiesel - Topic Powered by Social Strata

Short version....
Based on what I was told by Mahindra (that they weren't going to warrant it's use), I doubt they'll back you up on warranty issues if you use Bio in it and something goes wrong.
-Graydon

[blue7.3]

Thanks Gray! Yeah I've been following the 2011 SuperDuty saga pretty closely, is why I asked. Don't know if B20 works into my plans or not. I can buy it locally, not interested in making it (no time). When the TRs arrive and I've seen, touched, driven, then the pro/con matricies come out and we'll see where we wind up.

cheers,
-pete

[Max465]

For those of you still with us. There is a Kick Butt Diesel truck on the horizon. Many people involved are doing everything within their power without sparing expense to make these trucks as perfect as you want them to be right out of the gate.


I'm still here with all of you! Thank for a great update - I am now more psyched than ever to test drive the first light duty diesel pickup to hit the US market!

[ckbarcus]

I was under the impression that (SCR?)-Urea injection
was the type of exaust treatment going to be used on
these trucks not post fuel-injection.

[graydonblair]

SCR Urea is for the treatment of NOx, not particulate matter.
DPF's are used to reduce particulates (the black smoke).

Two completely different systems that target different emissions coming out of the tailpipe.

So, on a modern diesel, here's the list of emission controls that we now see.
1) Urea Treatment (2010/2011) - Treats NOx levels
2) Diesel Particulate Filters - Removes the black smoke and microscopic particulate matter from the exhaust
3) Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR's) - To a certain extent, they also help with NOx levels.
4) Catalytic Converters - Do whatever they do. I forget which emissions they target.

Dodge (a.k.a. Cummins) is able to avoid the Urea treatment option as they use precious metals as a catalyst to break down the NOx levels to get them within spec under Tier II Bin 5 EPA Emission Requirements for diesel engines.

Also, from a fuel standpoint, in about 1993 we saw a chunk of sulfur removed from diesel fuel. In 2007 it dropped even lower to the Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel standard. That also was mandated from the EPA. Each drop saw lower fuel mileage from owners of diesels as the energy content in the fuel dropped slightly.

Multiple injection sequences on electronic fuel injection systems also help reduce emissions. I've read that in some modern diesel engines they can have up to 15 fuel injection events in one piston cycle. Isn't technology amazing?

The kicker with all these emissions regulations is that by implementing them you lose power and fuel mileage. Particularly with the diesel particulate filter.

Strap a big honey-comb looking mesh like metal thing in your tail pipe and it'll restrict air flow significantly. Which also means the engine really can't breathe all that well anymore. Hence the monstrous jump in engine sizes we saw in 2007 & 2008 as well as the massive drop in fuel mileage on some of the full size trucks (I've heard reports of some Fords dropping by as much as 1/4 of their standard fuel mileage when they first came out). Anytime you drop unburned fuel into the tailpipe though that's, Fuel down the pipe....quite literally!

I'm not a big fan of all these stupid EPA mandated emissions on diesels, but, I guess it gets us cleaner air. Meeting all of the emissions though with newer diesel engines is an absolute nightmare. I won't be surprised if we see another delay by Mahindra simply because they have to go back & redo some of the electronics on their engines to get them to pass the emissions. I've heard that they'll also have the urea tanks on them as well.

Man, how I long for the day of the older diesels! Great mileage, no stupid restrictive devices in the tail pipe, and all you had to do was turn the pump up slightly to get more power. Oh well...welcome to the future, eh?

[howam00]

At least we are getting cleaner air because of the emissions regs.

Personally I think better efficiency can come from downsizing the engines. Who needs 7 liters worth of motor? Most diesels in cars are now around 80hp per liter. That would be roughly 560 horses out of a 7 liter motor and we all know that the Detriot 3 are nowhere near this although they are easily capable of doing so (look at the motors Banks' produces).

Why not up the power density on a 4-5 liter motor and get the same power, less weight and better fuel economy all in one package?! I am sure they'll cry about it not being reliable enough but with CGI engine blocks out now that really is a poor excuse, besides does anyone actually own a vehicle to 500,000 miles?

Heck I bet within 18 months we see Bully Dog or Banks come out with a tuner for this little 2.2L motor and get us all about 175hp and 285 lbs of torque. That is likely adeqaute for most all of us. It is for me anyway.

[howam00]

B20 or better would be nice but it sounds like we'll have to wait for gen 2 of this truck before we might get the capabilties of doing this. Can't wait for that, nothing like the smell of french fries in the morning on the way to work from using WVO to make Bio.